The first cold start of the morning some Toyota and Lexus V6 owners, especially those who have the 2.5L or 3.5L V6, notice a loud rattle the first few seconds after startup. The noise disappears after the car builds oil pressure. The most common cause is the variable valve timing camshaft gear assembly leaking down oil pressure as it sits. What is this part and what should you do if you experience these symptoms?
The variable valve timing system allows the engine to benefit from timing that can change as the engine dictates – it’s like having many different styles of camshaft at the ready. At a steady freeway cruising speed? The variable valve timing acts like an exhaust gas recirculation system, helping to reduce engine emissions. Going for a spirited drive? The timing ramps itself up, aggressively advancing the intake cam to help speed air and fuel into the cylinders to give you the most powerful combustion it can muster. Both intake and both exhaust camshafts are independently controlled by individual valves that flow oil into and out of the camshaft gears, advancing and retarding the camshaft’s timing as dictated by the engine’s computer. Oil pressure is used to move internal phasers in the cam gears, allowing them infinite variations of position. Below is a photo of a variable camshaft gear opened up:
The problem lay in the construction of the intake cam gear assemblies – in some cases while they sit unused (engine off) they bleed oil pressure back into the engine. This is not a big deal when they sit idle, but upon startup they are starved of oil (it all leaked out back into the oil pan!) until the oil pump can send them pressurized oil to take up the slack. This the rattle noise you hear – the internal phasers being knocked about without much oil to cushion them.
The problem led to enough failures that Lexus’s repair bulletin was upgraded into a full blown recall for some 3.5L direct injection engine (recall DLG). For reasons unknown these gears were more likely to fall apart and throw debris. Other versions of the engine with these cam gear can also have issues with check engine lights and ticking noises from the engine while it runs. Toyota repair bulletin T-SB-0094-09 covers this more in depth (it’s a big procedure requiring engine removal).
If you experience this noise from your engine, CARspec is happy to confirm the condition at no charge. As a Toyota and Lexus specialist we see these engine more often then most auto shops and can get the condition repaired quickly, or if applicable direct you to the local dealership for recall work or warranty repair.
Good day John,
I’m the proud owner of a 2009/2010 Lexus RX450h that sporadically exhibits the same symptoms as described above.
*Do you by any chance know if the symptoms (might) occur on the 2GR-FXE engine in my vehicle?
*Are the 2GR-FE and 2GR-FXE engines similar enough that this may be caused by the same problem?
* Might the viscosity of the engine oil have an effect on this problem?
* Might switching the engine off before it reached operating temperature the previous day cause this problem the next day at first cold start?
Kind regards and thank you in advance for any assistance or your thoughts on this.
Thys
South Africa
While the components of the engine are (as far as I’m aware) near identical, I can’t say I’ve seen a 2GR-FXE with the cold start rattle. I’d be skeptical the oil was to blame if you are using 0w20 weight synthetic oil that meets Toyota’s requirements – if you aren’t using this oil, switch back to it might be the best (cheap) repair attempt. While we’ve seen cold starts cause an issue on the Prius resulting a rattle, I don’t know if not letting the engine warm up will lead to a cold start rattle noise o the 2GR. Good luck!
Hi John,
Thank you for the write up. I have that rattle noise from my IS250 during cold start up or sometimes hot starts. What do you think about using a thinner oil so it reaches the cam gears faster?
Thanks
Personally, I recommend you stay with the factory recommended oil. Thinner oil likely won’t hurt anything but also won’t help the condition (in my experience). I’d consider replacing the root cause – the cam gears.
I have replaced bank 1&2 exhaust can gears . They had a visible problem. The problem still exists. Is it a intake cam gear problem? They are different than the exhaust gears
Sorry , this is a 08 Toyota highlander 3.5l
Mark,
The noise lay inside the intake camshaft gears, not the exhaust. While the exhaust gears are subject to failure on their own (the outer 5-point bolts loosen up and the gear disassembles itself), this root cause of the issue is the intake camshaft gears. Contact your local Toyota dealership to get the most updated part – they’ve revised them multiple times to hone in on a fix.
Good luck!
Great write up and very helpful. Makes me want to drive up to Minnesota from Chicago to visit your shop. My 08 Highlander rattles not at cold start in the morning, but after it’s been driven in the morning and sits for 2 hours or so. Then when I start it, it rattles. Is this still the intake cam gear? Or is this a different problem altogether? The folks down here I’ve talked to are stumped as it sounds just like the VVTI but different circumstances.
Is there any danger of long term damage?
Thanks!
Lee,
Overwhelmingly the problem is the intake camshaft gears leaking oil pressure as the vehicle sits. Note that the noise will only happen when the engine is started and should subside once oil pressure reaches the cam gears. In some cases the camshaft gears start to disassemble themselves – the three retainers that hold the entire gear together back out a bit, usually setting a check engine light pertaining to the VVT advance. This is also possible on the exhaust cam gears. Given enough time the bolts will completely fall out, destroying the engine. It takes a long time to get there but it can happen.
Good luck!
[…] had a few inquiries as to how to set the timing on a 3.5L Toyota or Lexus 2GR-FE and, having taken on apart this week to replace rattling camshaft gears, took a few photos on how to set the timing of both the primary and secondary chains across the 4 […]
Hi John,
I just bought a 2005 Toyota 4Runnner Limited, and it makes this rattle sound you describe when I first start it up in the morning. It recently got kinda chilly here (I’m in Texas, so chilly means 50 degrees), so I don’t know if it does this every morning in warm weather too. Do you think it could be this camshaft issue? I’m about to take it in next week for some recall work, so I would be interested to know what you think so I can talk to the dealership about it. (I like to know what I’m talking about before I try to deal with mechanics.)
Thanks!
Bianca,
I would be skeptical your 4Runner would have this particular cold start cam gear issue, doubly so if you have the V8. It isn’t unheard of to have piston slap on the V8 if have that engine, but hearing the noise is the first step in diagnostics for the technician. If you can, have the dealer keep the car overnight and try it in the morning.
Good luck!
John
Hi,
2007 RAV4 w/the V6 mentioned in this article…and the rattle / whirring / noise during a cold start-up. Probably noticed it for the last 10K miles – 98K now.
Is the CEL coming on common enough to trust as a symptom it’s time to either trade-in the car or fix it?
If not, is there another way to avoid buying a new engine before it self-implodes?
Thanks your info,
WD
I got 2010camry 2010 and had install the timing chain kit , guides, sproker, tensioner, upper guide, all oil preassure sealer, gasket valve cover and spark and vvt-¡ small rubber sealers.
Today the camshaft position sensor, a xheck engine light.
Notice very low oil measure so drop 2 oil 0-20 quarts and made the rattle a lot less.
QUESTION
WHATS NEXT?
THANKS
Its a 2.5L engine with 163,000 miles and a well taken care engine, oil change every 5,000 etc.
Good day again John,
I left the first comment during April 2015 but so far the solution to the problem is still evading me. I had the vehicle taken to the dealer and after 6 bottles of injector cleaner the symptoms resided but they are back. I have loaded a video onto Dropbox at https://www.dropbox.com/l/s/Il05mwjFj0ilvR1RHqTGSn.
I would really appreciate if you could take a look and listen. What I could gather from the Torque OBD2 app is that the rattling takes place during the first minute or so of a cold start while the ignition timing is retarded in order to heat up the catalytic converter. As soon as the ignition timing is returned to the normal range the rattling stops.
Your attention will be sincerely appreciated.
Thys
Thys,
If it is a 2GR-FE the only cause of an internal rattle noise I’ve seen is a failing VVT camshaft gear. We recently had a guest with one that went from mild cold-start rattle to complete engine failure, so I’d recommend having the dealership run the VVT through it’s full range of motion (all 4 gears) on their techstream computer before you drove it much further. If you’ve got a ticking noise as well I highly recommend having the valve covers removed and the cam gears inspected too.
Good luck!
John
If you have a cold start rattle on any late model Toyota, the intake camshaft gear is the likely suspect. It is not limited to the V6 engines, but more common on them.
Good luck!
John
I just purchased a 2014 toyota sequoia with 32k miles. I purchased the 100k miles extended warranty. When we start the vehicle…the engine revs up for about 15 seconds and then idles down and runs normal. Is this something we should be concerned about and take back to the dealer for repair. We traded in a Siena which obviously doesn’t have the power a sequoia has so just want to make sure the loud rev up upon a cold start is normal.
Mike,
It is normal for a vehicle to idle higher upon cold start. The vehicle also has a mechanical fan that roars to life when you start the car which can sound abnormal to new owners as well.
If you continue to be concerned I encourage you to stop by the dealer and have them listen to it.
Good luck!
John
Thank you